iCarryUtah – Firearms and Utah Concealed Carry

I have recently noted a good deal of chatter and concern over questions about…

What Kind Of Firearms Can You Carry And Conceal

and

Interactions with DWR/DNR Folks and other LE folks that don’t know the answer to the first part.

I was attending the Utah BCI Instructor Training Course this last weekend, and I went straight to the source.  I spoke with Jeff Dunn, an Investigator with the Utah Bureau of Criminal Identification, and one the instructors for the Instructor Course.

On the first part, here is what he told me…

“As long as the firearm the permit holder intends on carrying is legal to own and possess per state and federal law, a valid Utah concealed firearm permit holder can legally possess/carry rifles, shotguns and/or handguns.”

He further clarified that this includes lawfully possessed Class III / Form 4 items.  If you could legally own an FN P90, you could carry it.   As it is, concealed carry of a legally registered MP5 or Uzi would be just as possible but is less practically concealable than a handgun.

This also includes shorter, personal defensive firearms such as the FN PS90.  Now, with discretion being the better part of valor, carrying something more bulky such as a rifle or shotgun may mean open carry.  Is that the best option?  That’s up to the individual to decide.

On the second part, BCI is doing what they can to educate various LE Agencies around the State.  Here is what he told me on that end..

“To answer your question, the sworn officers with the Utah Bureau of Criminal Identification (BCI) taught the Utah Department of Natural Resources (DNR State Park Officers & upper management with the Division of Wildlife Resources) a two hour concealed firearm permit and weapon law update/refresher class in 2009.”

At that time, they educated them on the Utah Concealed Firearm Permit, and let them know what the real story is.  Now, did each DNR officer internalize the information given in that training?  For that matter, does every LEO in the State know all of the laws that they have to deal with?  Take a look at http://le.utah.gov/~code/code.htm, then toss in all of the various County and City Ordinances.  I doubt they understand all of that.    

That said, LEO’s have a duty to keep up on the latest laws and changes with each legislative session – as do Concealed Firearm Permit Holders.  Thankfully we have a “State supremacy clause” that says that the State Legislature makes laws relating to firearms.  That gives them a more limited scope they have to study in relation to firearms laws.

As it is, I hope that this clears up at least one item, and makes it clear that BCI is working to make sure that LEO’s around the State understand our Concealed Firearm Permit.

It was a very good class, and I like being able to get the straight story from BCI every three years.  Of course, instructors are also free to contact BCI at any time, and that’s the recommended course of action whenever you have a question.

If any of my readers have questions they would like answered, let me know and I’ll do my best to answer it, and check with BCI if I don’t know it.

James Bell Jr – iCarryUtah.com

Here is a .PDF with my complete e-mail exchange with Jeff Dunn for reference.

Many of my students in recent months had the chance to handle the FN Five-seveN during my training classes while I had one on loan from FNH USA.  It’s not small, but it is easy to manage and offers advantages in weight and capacity.

The 5.7x28mm round has long been the subject of internet armchair guessing and armchair quarterbacking when it comes to debating the functional capabilities of the round for defensive purposes.

Sadly, the Five-seveN firearm was used with factory SS192 ammunition in the shooting incident at Fort Hood in 2009.  An Army Officer, Major Nidal Hasan seemingly decided that his islamic background took priority over his oath as a Soldier.  He attacked primarily unarmed Americans at Fort Hood, and killed and wounded many.

There is detailed testimony that can be found at http://cmm.lefora.com/2010/10/14/fort-hood-survivors-testify-major-nidal-malik-hasa/

In a recent on-line discussion about this round and the functional observations that can be made from this incident, one user noted that

“Clearly the round was highly effective.

In the opening moments of the massacre 2 soldiers and a civilian all tried to attack him by throwing tables and charging him with chairs over their heads, and all three were immediately stopped by SS192.

Stopping 3 determined attackers instantly, 2 of whom are military trained, is impressive, any way you cut it.”

That is more or less a good summary of what I came to from the incident.

As an instructor, the State of Utah uses the term “stopping power” in the required materials for the Utah CFP training.  When it comes to that, I show a photo of a .50 Barrett and show a .50BMG dummy round.  That’s stopping power.

When it comes to a handgun, you are dealing with a compromise – something that you can easily CARRY and CONCEAL.  You should not expect that the subject will fly back 20 feet when hit, explode in a shower of sparks, or instantly drop dead.

The goal is to STOP them from doing whatever it was that they were doing that required you to shoot them.

If they are trying to rape you, you are shooting to make them stop trying to rape you.

If they are trying to stab you, you are shooting to make them stop trying to stab you.

There are examples of immediate incapacitation (or de-animation as some put it) from many calibers – but many more examples of functional stops – the attacker was rendered unable to continue what they were doing.

What I have found to be true…

SHOT PLACEMENT IS CRITICAL NO MATER WHAT.

Larger calibers are generally better (making a larger hole to start with) and compensate SLIGHTLY for shot placement.

Reliable, consistent, bullet behavior (combination of penetration, expansion and/or fragmentation) can give you the edge but should not be relied upon.

Mental preparation and planning are ESSENTIAL.

Training is required.

REACTION is slower than ACTION.

Give yourself every advantage (night-sights, targeting-assist lasers, etc).

Now – there were mitigating factors to be considered in this incident.

All of his opponents in the initial part of the engagement were unarmed.

Most of his opponents were TRAINED, but were not mentally expecting anything where they were.

Some of them reacted aggressively (positively).  But against an ARMED OPPONENT who had apparently PLANNED his actions, they REACTED as best they could, but they were – literally – outgunned.

Had more of them been able to be armed, the incident would have ended much more rapidly.  But since “guns are evil” applies on our soil, that was not an option.

This incident gave us real-world data (from a significant number of shots) that says that the Five-seveN factory round (SS192 specifically) fired from the Five-seveN pistol, can be quite effective at FUNCTIONALLY STOPPING an attacker even in non-Center Of Mass hits.

From Officer Munley –

I got hit in the thigh first, and I believe that started to take me down. My Beretta 9 mm handgun had jammed just as the second bullet hit me in the knee and knocked me to the ground.

That round shattered her bone into about 120 pieces.  A non-COM hit that took her functionally out of the fight.

You also have other folks that didn’t realize they were hit initially.  This is not uncommon.  If a round goes clear through without a Central Nervous System or critical organ hit, that happens.

I would not say that the data from this incident shows that the Five-seveN is any better than the more conventional carry calibers (9mm, .40S&W, .45ACP), but it is certainly no worse either.  I felt very comfortable carrying one for the 3 months I had our review unit, and found that the weight and capacity were, in fact, quite advantageous.